Friday, May 02, 2008

"Ah, I see you've played cuppy-napkinny before."

Girl: Can I please have an extra cup?
Tim Horton's Staff: Here you go.
Girl: Those are napkins.
Tim Horton's Staff: Whoops.

-- UCC Tim Horton's line, overheard by Jordan

35 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Must've been an Ivey fuck-up working the counter.

7:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That Time Horton's sucks... often it's the only one open on campus, and there will be one person working. I've seen a line up out to the doorway of Spoke!

12:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

*Tim

12:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

7:02 - you have us confused with a worthless faculty, like arts or music. Let me spell it out for your dumb ass:

Ivey = bourgoise careers; investment bankers, traders, marketing analysts, consultants etc.

Your faculty = proletariat "careers"; McDonalds, Tim Hortons etc.

8:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think 8:38 has a small penis, and is trying to overcompensate for it with what he thinks are fancy words, but are really nonsensical... yeah, Universities turn out proletariats.... moron.

9:43 PM  
Anonymous annoyed socialsci student said...

Dear 9:43,

I don't go to Ivey, but I still think you're a dumbass.

Proletariat is Marx's term for the working class. The fact that you don't know that indicates to me that you have no understanding of history or politics whatsoever, as the term isn't exactly obscure. Also, proletariat is already plural. The fact you said "proletariats" is a good indication you are an epic failure.

In summary, YOU are the ignorant moron.

9:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

8:38-

People like you make me sad. Arts and music are worthless? OH NOES MY ENTIRE LIFE IS DEDICATED TO A DEAD-END PURSUIT. Maybe I'll go slit my throat now because no one ever makes a living as a musician.

I mean, sorry to burst your elitist bubble, but money isn't everything. If you can be rich doing what you love, great. If you'd rather die than go into business (like me), then you don't necessarily mind not having a lot of material wealth as long as you're happy.

10:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

8:38,
Just because I think that Ivey is full of fuck-ups who think they're going to be rich, doesn't mean I'm an arts student. As an actuarial student will little work experience, my salary is already more than what what you are likely to ever make.

Ivey alumni average salary is only about 106K (http://www.ivey.uwo.ca/about/rankings.htm), that's good, but not all that impressive, especially when you consider the fact the distribution is significantly positively skewed by the few that make millions. I wouldn't be surprised if the median salaray is closer to 80K. Even teachers make more than that and they only work 6 hours a day for a little more than 9 months of the year. Ivey alumni averge salaries are pwned by lawyers, doctors, actuaries, CAs, dentists, pilots, air traffic controllers,...

Let's not even begin the unending task of listing professions that are more important to society or require more intelligence.

7:02

11:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

7:02 (11:58),

I'm not 8:38, but I do go to Ivey and have a couple points of contention with your theory that a business degree isn't as great as some of the other professional degrees.

Before addressing that, I should point out that when Ivey students make snarky comments, it's usually directed towards rank-and-file arts majors. It's rare to see Ivey students mocking law or engineering students since we think those degrees confer useful job skills (unlike say, a philosophy degree... esoteric knowledge isn't bad, but good luck getting a high-paying job with that major). If you really are an actuarial student, then we group you in the category of "intelligent, has useful skills".

Anyways, you're looking at alumni salaries only. This only tells part of the picture why Ivey students are financially "smug". The average compensation for a new grad out of the HBA program is roughly 63k. You'll be hard pressed to find any other undergrad program that has average starting salaries in this range.

Next, you clearly have little inside info about the program - I find it somewhat amusing you listed "CAs" as one of the professions that pwn Ivey salaries. MANY grads from Ivey have their CAs. Thousands of alumni are chartered accountants... the two are often one in the same. Additionally, a great many Ivey grads have done concurrent degrees and are lawyers, engineers or doctors as well. So, ironically, a ton of Ivey grads are IN the very categories that you claim are better than Ivey.

Last, and most importantly, none of the professions you listed have the same enormous upside potential as getting a business degree (esp. from a top-tier school like Ivey). In other words, the highest paid CEOs and corporate directors make a hell of a lot more than the highest paid airline pilots. Even if the averages are lower for an Ivey grad, there's a lot greater potential to make extremely lucrative amounts of cash (you yourself even tacitly admitted this when you claimed that the grads who are multi-millionaires must be skewing the average).

12:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So, to summarize, Ivey grads need to have another professional degree or certification to make money? Hmm. Sounds a lot like Arts majors...

1:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

^Using that argument, then it must be a great idea to become an actor. Some actors make millions of dollars so I should become an actor because there's a small chance that I could make millions too.

Even if millionaires aren't skewing the average at all, the majority of Ivey grads are still making less than $106000. It's good money, but it's not enough to meet the unrealistic expectations of most Ivey posts on this site.

1:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

apparently i missed a post, my comment refers to 12:48

1:58

2:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1:39: Nice try, but Ivey degrees earn a lot more than art majors to begin with. Having another degree only augments already attractive earnings potentials.

1:58: Your actor analogy is true to some extent, but it's taking my point to a more extreme conclusion. There are a LOT of wannabe actors straddling the poverty line. Your chances of becoming a millionaire through being an educated, competent business leader are much, much greater than rising to fame in Hollywood.

Regarding the unrealistic expectations comments on OaW... I probably shouldn't be tipping the hat, but the vast majority of those comments are deliberately over-the-top and don't even reflect the actual opinions of those making them. There's a chunk of people who think that posting caricatures of the Ivey stereotype then watching the enraged, defensive responses come out en masse provides solid comedic value. I wouldn't expect anyone outside the faculty to get it, but at times the anti-Ivey hissy fits that get proved are good for a laugh or two.

5:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

* provoked

5:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

5:07: You're a 5% chance of becoming a millionaire is much much greater than a 0.000001% chance.

6:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

philosophy is useless and esoteric?

hmm just because ethics and reasoning have no place in the business world doesn't mean the rest of us don't need them in our lives.

10:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The average compensation for a new grad out of the HBA program is roughly 63k. You'll be hard pressed to find any other undergrad program that has average starting salaries in this range."

Done. Actuarial Science. I wasn't hard pressed at all.

3:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actuarial science is the most boring shit ever devised.

6:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Agreed. If I had to choose, I'd much rather go to Ivey than go into actuarial science. I imagine that Ivey students will actually get to do somewhat interesting things after they graduate (like making real business decisions). Actuaries are little more than career number punchers.

Reminds me of a joke I once heard...

"Actuaries are the people who accountants find boring."

8:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

hey now, don't let the ivey students give the rest of us business students a bad reputation

realisticly, it's the people who go into a program for the money, and not to do somthing that they want to do,who are the douche bags

try to realise that not all business students are money grubbing assholes, that some of us care about being competent leaders who want the money to enjoy life, and a job that is worth while

6:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"philosophy is useless and esoteric?

hmm just because ethics and reasoning have no place in the business world doesn't mean the rest of us don't need them in our lives.

10:21 AM"

So you are unable to learn anything outside of an academic setting? A major in philosophy is akin to having a major in indie music. Sure, it's interesting and gives you something pretentious to talk about - but let's face it, anyone with a bit of time and the ability to read can match you. At least with more legit degrees (science, actuary science, business, etc) you have a material benefit from the time invested.

Aside from entering the race for teacher's college, the only material benefit to getting an arts degree is to take easy courses to boost your average for graduate programs, primarily law.

Concerning scientists making more than business students - unless they go into grad school, that simply isn't true. With my science degree I could make 40, maybe 50k per year working as a lab grunt. The only reason that I'll make more than the average ivey grad is because I'm in grad school.

2:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

^ I agree with everything said in this post.

I think philosophy is interesting, but yeah... spending four years and twenty thousands bucks to study philosophy is probably overkill. It's a subject that lends itself quite well to self-study.

With respect to the allegation "ethics and reasoning have no place in the business world", I should point out that all HBAs are required to take a course on corporate social responsibility, and there is a full-term elective on business ethics offered as well. With regard to reasoning... please. Ivey students take a core class on analytics... I'd be willing to bet they reason better than you can (at least on business issues).

5:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The problem with self study and philosophy is that you don't actually learn as much that way. In order to fully understand a concept, and the many different ways it can be interpreted, one needs to hear from a variety of different people. Anything can be self studied. I can go and buy and organic chemistry text book right now and read it, and if I'm bright enough, could possibly teach myself. However, having a person who has studied and worked in the feild longer than myself teach it to me, I can gain a better understanding of it.
As a professional student, I can only guess what "business ethics" entails, but in my program, ethics is seen as a throwaway thing they make us do. It's not really an in depth thing, and most people come out of it thinking the same way they did when they started. I can't say the same for any philosophy course I've ever taken. I don't think the Ivey kids would appreciate if I said our elective on managing our own business is the equivalent of their education, and anything else would just be flat out overkill.

1:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

^ I think you're right to an extent about self-study. Sure, it helps to have classes on a subject. But my point is mainly that philosophy is easier to learn through self-study than, in your example, organic chemistry.

Both subjects benefit from having seasoned instructors teach the material. But I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that a fairly complex, technical subject like organic chem benefits MORE from formal classes than most philosophical subjects.

I'm interested, what program are you in? It's interesting you make the point about the "ethics" being taught in your program being a throughaway... I'm in a professional program as well, and feel very much the same way.

8:30 PM  
Blogger Ed said...

^ Ethics in engineering is certainly viewed as a throwaway, despite its importance in the professional world.

8:30, I'd think a bit more carefully about 1:58's point. While from a certain standpoint, it is certainly more DIFFICULT to learn, say, organic chemistry through self-study, the fact is that you can still gain a complete and thorough understanding of it, or another science, on your own. It would be incredibly dry, and require a hell of a big work ethic, to work your way up to quantum physics from textbooks, but since sciences consist of accepted facts and theorems, debate is not important.

Philosophy is easier to pick up through self study, but as 1:58 points out, a core element of learning philosophy is debate. Philosophy is not made up of hard facts. I disagree, for instance, with most of what Thomas Hobbes had to say, but it's difficult to debate that, say, the Clausius inequality is wrong unless I actually make a perpetual motion machine. Without the benefit of collegial discussion, learning philosophy is a very different beast.

2:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As something to add to your little debate, a high proportion of Ivey students come from wealthy families with connections. Since most business jobs, especially for recent graduates, are gained through networking and nepotism, they're self-selected for high paying roles. Every Ivey student I know comes from a family of upper-middle class to upper class families, most coming from private schools like UCC and Ridley. The degree itself is secondary to the networks established. Most business jobs can be gained through experience, going from the ground up. Many such people will later take their HBAs or MBAs fully paid for by their companies, if they require them. Having a liberal arts degree is no hindrance to success, and going to Ivey is no guarantee of it. But going to Ivey is often an indicator of being born into wealth, and wealthy people tend to have wealthy connections, which skews the value of the education itself.

3:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ed, I couldn't have said it better myself. I've found that most hard sciences can be self taught through minimal teaching and lots of individual work through problem sets. I'm in med, and a lot of people don't even go to class if lecture notes are provided, essentially because it's not rocket science and we can figure the material out through self study in less time than the lecture is scheduled for.
The comment above strikes me as well, because I find the same thing in med. Because it's so expensive and competitive, there are very few people who do not already come from money in my program. That being said, connections probably won't get us all that further than our colleagues.
-1:58

4:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

3:29 - I would dispute your claim that most Ivey students come from wealthy families. As someone who was actually in the program, I'm in a solid position to say that the assertion most Ivey students have wealthy parents is an urban legend. Are there rich kids at Ivey? Absolutely. Are they in the majority (or even in a sizeable minority)? Not really. Having been in both socialsci and Ivey, I can say the overall percentage of rich students is more or less the same.

I knew most of the people in my year, and only a small handful had the family connections to get jobs through nepotism. The majority of people got jobs through the Ivey intranet job board, not daddy hooking them up.

The whole "all Ivey kids have rich parents who get them jobs" thing is another misconception about the program. The income demographics at Ivey don't skew radically from the rest of campus.

5:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

WOW! another Ivey vs. Everyone else rant...I gave up reading this at the second post. I cannot believe the stupid things people overhear (and yes I have submitted a couple myself) turn into discussions about who is better, worse, or whatever. Can we please get back on topic here, or does everyone need their coffee in the morning double napkined?

3:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just a comment to add:
I did a social science degree and in a couple years I'll be a doctor. I also got rejected from Ivey in 2nd year. And when I'm all done school (and paid off OSAP!) I'll make more money than an Ivey grad (the majority anyway) and, even better, actually be helping people for a living..

3:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I love how everyone working at Tim Horton's these days are straight off the boat!

3:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ 8:38 PM

The fact that your using Marxist the term "Bourgeoisies" to describe
yourself is fucking hilarious. If your going to be an elitist douche-hole you could at least use terms that aren't coined by someone who hates you, and thinks that the entire power system of society is built around an inevitable power struggle culminating in your failure.

11:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

11:28: there's this dry kind of humour called "sarcasm", I suggest you look into it to better understand 8:38's post.

8:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Right now the top of the Ivey sections are all scrambling to pick up an arts course instead of arguing about who makes more money. Thousand point drops in the TSX and a market with no liquidity have a tendency to hurt those investment banking and finance jobs.

4:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

SNOOOOOORE!

1:19 AM  

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